Listen now (41 min) | In episode 1 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, co-hosts Marni Kammersell and Chris Wells sit down for an unscripted, personal conversation about Pathological Demand Avoidance as a lived experience.
"I had images of how oppressed I feel by my own calendar. Like, even though my life is so accommodated for me, every appointment I have with another person, even if it's a friend, even if it's someone I want to talk to, is an obligation that I am now required to meet. And it's a tyranny for me. And I just don't think that people who don't have PDA or aren't PDAers...They're like, what do you mean? Like, how could this conversation with me, your friend, be a demand?" YUP. This.
This is so enormously helpful. I think understanding my relationship to PDA has been a slow and strange thing, one of the facets of my autism where I feel resistance toward, like, "pathologizing" something that might just be a neutral part of my humanity. (And I'm totally aware of the privilege involved in approaching the topic in this way.) But there's a nuance and directness to how ya'll are putting it here that's really helping me understand PDA better, both as a valid lived experience and as something that likely speaks to my experiences, too.
Hey Sarah! I feel very similar about PDA, I think. Autonomy and a very strong need for it just feels like a natural human thing to me.
I'm still thinking about what it means that "a drive for autonomy" has been one of the strongest themes in my life since my very earliest memories... does that necessarily align with the construct of "PDA"? I'm still not sure, to be honest.
Some of the PDA narratives fit for me, while others don't. (Much the same as for all the rest of the ND experiences, right? We only see ourselves in them when we hear stories that match in some deeper way... I still don't really see my experience in most ADHD spaces/stories, it's taken a slow unfurling for me to explore what that term/identity means for me personally)
I am drawn in deeper by parenting a PDA child. If I didn't have a child who so clearly fits what we are talking about with "PDA," it would be much harder for me to think about how/if PDA fits for me as a grown adult!
Thanks for sharing your experience! It's wonderful to hear that our conversations are resonating and I always love connecting with new friends here on Substack. I've read your work on For the Birds for awhile here too. :)
Well that makes me feel happy / flattered / embarrassed :) So grateful to be connecting more directly!
And yeah, everything you said is landing so well for me. More and more, I think the only framework anyone can really carry is a personalized one, not pre-built but stitched together through context and nuance and made specifically for them. (I sorta have the Buddhist idea of 'being yr own light' in mind here...) These labels and diagnostics are SO so helpful in getting us into the right rooms in general, but then maybe it's up to us to find the right furniture and decorate the walls and really fine-tune the framework so that it speaks to each of us.
I completely agree, Sarah - I've had similar thoughts in therapy and talking with my psychiatrist (ie, the clinical parts of this thing we're doing), that I really need to be my own expert and figure out what fits me and what doesn't - I think that's so important on any journey like this
Thank you so much for this, Sarah. That part of the episode felt vulnerable to say out loud, and I’m glad it resonated. It’s taken me a long time to understand that my experience of “demand” includes not only unwanted interactions, but also wanted ones. Things that look reasonable and even enjoyable from the outside but still feel like pressure internally.
I appreciate the way you’re holding the tension between naming PDA and honoring it as part of your humanity. That nuance matters so much, and it’s something we’re trying to make space for in these conversations. I’m so glad it’s helping things come into focus.
Thanks for this ... I remember after a lifetime of easy A's getting "in trouble" (sent to the school psychologist) because I decided to put a twist on an assignment to write an autobiography (so boring who would want to read that) by handing in an audiotape analysis of the fantasy novel I was writing and how my characters were "aspects of my personality" ... amateur literary criticism at best but that is not at all how they took it .... I've also been drawn to "systems" and left them to create my own ... dissociation/fantasy as self-protection and autonomy I also resonate with
I’ve been thinking a lot about those kinds of moments - rejecting and reclaiming school assignments at the same time by making them more interesting. Those are the kinds of nuances that get lost when we just talk about “avoiding demands.”
Chris, thank you so much for sharing this, as it really hits home. That moment with the autobiography assignment says so much. The impulse to transform a demand into something meaningful and creatively yours… and then getting pathologized for it is so familiar. We’re so often misread when we’re actually showing signs of self-awareness.
I love that you’ve been drawn to systems and then left them to build your own. That resonates with me, too. There’s something beautiful about making space for our own inner logic and structure, even if it looks like chaos from the outside.
I also experience PDA as disabling and pathological, and it's hard to disentangle that from trauma responses. They can also converge and make it impossible to do anything if I think about it and "decide" to do it.
I've been experimenting with letting my inner drive to guide me more and asking inside what I "want" - and even asking what I want becomes a demand, and feels oppressive (truly maddening). So then the only option is to be with myself, be attentive to what's alive in me, what needs are there, and how to allow that to express itself.
Now just to figure out how to make that work enough that life doesn't look chaotic. But there's an inner order than looks like chaos on the outside, yet resists any attempt at taming.
The only thing that resembles a genuine way forward is wu-wei.
Dahlia, I want to say how much I resonate with both of your comments, and I'm sitting with the depth of what you’re expressing here. The convergence of PDA and trauma responses can be such a labyrinth. The paradox, where even asking what you want becomes a demand, is so real.
Your shift toward attuning to what’s alive in you and listening for needs without forcing anything also resonates. There is an inner order that defies external taming. Yes. Letting right action emerge from within, without coercion.
I'm so glad you’re here with us. Thank you for naming this so clearly!
Reflecting on coercion just now and then it occurred to me that it’s not merely a drive for autonomy and self-directedness, but a very high drive to fulfil/meet whatever need is most salient and allow for the realization/completion of the (neurobiological) action state. This blocks anything else from being realized. (is this a duh moment?)
So when I ask what I want, it’s an attempt to coerce myself away from a particular state of the inner order, and into a different state of answering dumb fucking questions (lol).
Wow wow wow:
"I had images of how oppressed I feel by my own calendar. Like, even though my life is so accommodated for me, every appointment I have with another person, even if it's a friend, even if it's someone I want to talk to, is an obligation that I am now required to meet. And it's a tyranny for me. And I just don't think that people who don't have PDA or aren't PDAers...They're like, what do you mean? Like, how could this conversation with me, your friend, be a demand?" YUP. This.
This is so enormously helpful. I think understanding my relationship to PDA has been a slow and strange thing, one of the facets of my autism where I feel resistance toward, like, "pathologizing" something that might just be a neutral part of my humanity. (And I'm totally aware of the privilege involved in approaching the topic in this way.) But there's a nuance and directness to how ya'll are putting it here that's really helping me understand PDA better, both as a valid lived experience and as something that likely speaks to my experiences, too.
Hey Sarah! I feel very similar about PDA, I think. Autonomy and a very strong need for it just feels like a natural human thing to me.
I'm still thinking about what it means that "a drive for autonomy" has been one of the strongest themes in my life since my very earliest memories... does that necessarily align with the construct of "PDA"? I'm still not sure, to be honest.
Some of the PDA narratives fit for me, while others don't. (Much the same as for all the rest of the ND experiences, right? We only see ourselves in them when we hear stories that match in some deeper way... I still don't really see my experience in most ADHD spaces/stories, it's taken a slow unfurling for me to explore what that term/identity means for me personally)
I am drawn in deeper by parenting a PDA child. If I didn't have a child who so clearly fits what we are talking about with "PDA," it would be much harder for me to think about how/if PDA fits for me as a grown adult!
Thanks for sharing your experience! It's wonderful to hear that our conversations are resonating and I always love connecting with new friends here on Substack. I've read your work on For the Birds for awhile here too. :)
Well that makes me feel happy / flattered / embarrassed :) So grateful to be connecting more directly!
And yeah, everything you said is landing so well for me. More and more, I think the only framework anyone can really carry is a personalized one, not pre-built but stitched together through context and nuance and made specifically for them. (I sorta have the Buddhist idea of 'being yr own light' in mind here...) These labels and diagnostics are SO so helpful in getting us into the right rooms in general, but then maybe it's up to us to find the right furniture and decorate the walls and really fine-tune the framework so that it speaks to each of us.
I completely agree, Sarah - I've had similar thoughts in therapy and talking with my psychiatrist (ie, the clinical parts of this thing we're doing), that I really need to be my own expert and figure out what fits me and what doesn't - I think that's so important on any journey like this
Thank you so much for this, Sarah. That part of the episode felt vulnerable to say out loud, and I’m glad it resonated. It’s taken me a long time to understand that my experience of “demand” includes not only unwanted interactions, but also wanted ones. Things that look reasonable and even enjoyable from the outside but still feel like pressure internally.
I appreciate the way you’re holding the tension between naming PDA and honoring it as part of your humanity. That nuance matters so much, and it’s something we’re trying to make space for in these conversations. I’m so glad it’s helping things come into focus.
on occasion my PDA is such that I even get angry with guided meditations and that is kind of hilarious in and of itself
I can't listen to most meditation guides - I kinda hate the "calm" voice...too fake
Thanks for this ... I remember after a lifetime of easy A's getting "in trouble" (sent to the school psychologist) because I decided to put a twist on an assignment to write an autobiography (so boring who would want to read that) by handing in an audiotape analysis of the fantasy novel I was writing and how my characters were "aspects of my personality" ... amateur literary criticism at best but that is not at all how they took it .... I've also been drawn to "systems" and left them to create my own ... dissociation/fantasy as self-protection and autonomy I also resonate with
I’ve been thinking a lot about those kinds of moments - rejecting and reclaiming school assignments at the same time by making them more interesting. Those are the kinds of nuances that get lost when we just talk about “avoiding demands.”
Thanks for sharing!
Chris, thank you so much for sharing this, as it really hits home. That moment with the autobiography assignment says so much. The impulse to transform a demand into something meaningful and creatively yours… and then getting pathologized for it is so familiar. We’re so often misread when we’re actually showing signs of self-awareness.
I love that you’ve been drawn to systems and then left them to build your own. That resonates with me, too. There’s something beautiful about making space for our own inner logic and structure, even if it looks like chaos from the outside.
Thank you for being here!
I also experience PDA as disabling and pathological, and it's hard to disentangle that from trauma responses. They can also converge and make it impossible to do anything if I think about it and "decide" to do it.
I've been experimenting with letting my inner drive to guide me more and asking inside what I "want" - and even asking what I want becomes a demand, and feels oppressive (truly maddening). So then the only option is to be with myself, be attentive to what's alive in me, what needs are there, and how to allow that to express itself.
Now just to figure out how to make that work enough that life doesn't look chaotic. But there's an inner order than looks like chaos on the outside, yet resists any attempt at taming.
The only thing that resembles a genuine way forward is wu-wei.
*screams in autistic AF*
Dahlia, I want to say how much I resonate with both of your comments, and I'm sitting with the depth of what you’re expressing here. The convergence of PDA and trauma responses can be such a labyrinth. The paradox, where even asking what you want becomes a demand, is so real.
Your shift toward attuning to what’s alive in you and listening for needs without forcing anything also resonates. There is an inner order that defies external taming. Yes. Letting right action emerge from within, without coercion.
I'm so glad you’re here with us. Thank you for naming this so clearly!
Reflecting on coercion just now and then it occurred to me that it’s not merely a drive for autonomy and self-directedness, but a very high drive to fulfil/meet whatever need is most salient and allow for the realization/completion of the (neurobiological) action state. This blocks anything else from being realized. (is this a duh moment?)
So when I ask what I want, it’s an attempt to coerce myself away from a particular state of the inner order, and into a different state of answering dumb fucking questions (lol).
I've literally been procrastinating listening to this podcast, because guess why. 😅😭
So relatable. I can’t wait to hear more of your thoughts on this one. 😅🙈